Human vision, visual correction, and visual science

20/20 Shawn Responds to Mike T.

Dear Friends,

As you know, a poster with the initials RM does not
give use his name, but claims certain qualifications
which we can not check.

Equally, I have not identified my 14 year-old friends
Shawn-Jon for exactly the same reson.  You can believe
RM, or Shawn as you chooes.

It is true that the plus-for-prevention is difficult
to use, and depends more on the person’s fortitude,
than anything that can be "prescribed".  In that
sense the issue truly is the motivation concerned
with protecting his distant vision by use of the plus.

Subject:  Commentary by Jon on Mike’s theory of nearsightedness.

Jon > Please forward this to Mike Tyner as well.

Otis> I will — but he might choke.

     _______________

     Dear Jon,

     Mike Tyner is "making up" statements to avert the fact that
nearsighedness (in the first stage) is preventable — and you have
done it with outstanding success.

     He must do this (for sci.med.vision consumption) so that
others — less gifted — will avoid the idea that nearsighedness
(on the threshold) can be defeated the way that Stirling did it.

     No optometrist I know of EVER does ANY identification of that
nature.  All they do is put a minus lens on you to a strength that
just-clears the 20/20 line.  They then "pat you on the head" and
send you on your way.

     Equally, a percentage of optometrists have advocated
prevention over the last 100 years, by "correct use" of a plus
lens.  But correct implementation has eluded them — because
the "patient" involved has not understood the need to use
the plus "correctly".  Only when you actually used the plus with
great force and persistance — could you be successful, and
obviously under your full control

     I am willing to discuss some of these details with you — of
course.

     But the basic concept of prevention (from direct-experimental
data) is correct.

     As I stated when we began this — everything depended on the
fact that you would gain "measurement control".  Once you do this
— you become the "responsible engineer".  You are still young for
this analysis — but I am certain you have that capability also.
It just takes analytic skills.

     You might read the book by Thomas Kuhn, called "The Structure
of Scientific Revolutions" for background — and a book report.

     Mike Tyner is using the method put in place 400 years ago.
Whatever "science" it was based on — was available then.
It is very easy to "quick-fix" the public that walks in off the
street.  For "optometry" it is probably impossible to get beyond
that point in "their" science.

     If he argued that the "public" was ignorant, and
non-motivated, I would agree with him completely.  But you are not
"the public", and you have the right to use your own judgment
about science, facts, and protect your own visual future under
your own control.

     To further respond:

     ______________________

Jon > Dear Otis

Jon > I read where Mike Tyner states that it is only possible for
      accomodation myopes to improve their vision with the plus.

Otis> Mike has no clue about who can work their way out of
      nearsighedness.  I would suspect a large number of pilots
      could do so — if they had the motivation for it — and
      engineering support.  This is a conveient ploy — just
      describe everyone who works himself clear — as having
      "preventable myopia".  Always easy to do — after the fact!

Jon > He says it isnt possible for other types of myopia to be
      reversed with the plus.

Otis> I would agree that once YOU BEGIN WEARING THE MINUS you will
      develop NOT-PREVENABLE myopia — caused by that minus lens.

Otis> You were both lucky and smart not to be caught in that trap!

Jon > I think he may be wrong,

Otis> You are correct.       Remember what I said about money, power
      and position.  He must twist everything to maitain all of
      these things for himself.  Truth, accurate scientific fact,
      and your long-term visual is not important to him — they
      are only to you, and other scientists like Stirling Colgate,
      Francis Young and Howard Howland.

Jon > …Because when I went to my OD in april he told my my
      problem was that my cornea was too steep.

Otis> This is an extrapolation from a bad theory.  There is no way
      anyone could make that determination from an eye were only
      the reafractive status is measured.

Jon > He never mentioned psuedo-myopia as being my problem.

Otis> There is a profound misconception at work here.  It is the
      "bad theory" belief that the eye is a "frozen" box camera,
      and that you can analyize the eye that way.  This is called
      a "paradigm".  The scientific concept is that the eye is
      "dynamic".  This is a much more accurate concept — and in
      the event you have proven this fact to youself by getting
      your refractive status to change by +1.5 dipoters and
      clearing to 20/20.  For you that is the real proof — that
      you can do this work successfully under your own control.

Otis> Don’t let these closed-minded ODs get you down.  Remember
      the "quality" of Dr.  Stirling Colgate and Dr.  Steve Leung.
      Successful prevention is indeed the "medical"
      second-opinion, even though very difficult.

Otis> Steve Leung OD is working FOR YOU, and using the plus on his
      own young children.  This is the true nature of an honest
      "second opinion"

Best,

Otis

posted by admin in Uncategorized and have Comments (24)

24 Responses to “20/20 Shawn Responds to Mike T.”

  1. admin says:

    Otis, the scientific revolutionary once again elevates himself.

    otisbr…@pa.net (Otis Brown) wrote in
    news:6dbddb9.0411301826.b141327@posting.google.com:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    > Dear Friends,

    > As you know, a poster with the initials RM does not
    > give use his name, but claims certain qualifications
    > which we can not check.

    > Equally, I have not identified my 14 year-old friends
    > Shawn-Jon for exactly the same reson.  You can believe
    > RM, or Shawn as you chooes.

    > It is true that the plus-for-prevention is difficult
    > to use, and depends more on the person’s fortitude,
    > than anything that can be "prescribed".  In that
    > sense the issue truly is the motivation concerned
    > with protecting his distant vision by use of the plus.

    > Subject:  Commentary by Jon on Mike’s theory of nearsightedness.

    > Jon > Please forward this to Mike Tyner as well.

    > Otis> I will — but he might choke.

    >      _______________

    >      Dear Jon,

    >      Mike Tyner is "making up" statements to avert the fact that
    > nearsighedness (in the first stage) is preventable — and you have
    > done it with outstanding success.

    >      He must do this (for sci.med.vision consumption) so that
    > others — less gifted — will avoid the idea that nearsighedness
    > (on the threshold) can be defeated the way that Stirling did it.

    >      No optometrist I know of EVER does ANY identification of that
    > nature.  All they do is put a minus lens on you to a strength that
    > just-clears the 20/20 line.  They then "pat you on the head" and
    > send you on your way.

    >      Equally, a percentage of optometrists have advocated
    > prevention over the last 100 years, by "correct use" of a plus
    > lens.  But correct implementation has eluded them — because
    > the "patient" involved has not understood the need to use
    > the plus "correctly".  Only when you actually used the plus with
    > great force and persistance — could you be successful, and
    > obviously under your full control

    >      I am willing to discuss some of these details with you — of
    > course.

    >      But the basic concept of prevention (from direct-experimental
    > data) is correct.

    >      As I stated when we began this — everything depended on the
    > fact that you would gain "measurement control".  Once you do this
    > — you become the "responsible engineer".  You are still young for
    > this analysis — but I am certain you have that capability also.
    > It just takes analytic skills.

    >      You might read the book by Thomas Kuhn, called "The Structure
    > of Scientific Revolutions" for background — and a book report.

    >      Mike Tyner is using the method put in place 400 years ago.
    > Whatever "science" it was based on — was available then.
    > It is very easy to "quick-fix" the public that walks in off the
    > street.  For "optometry" it is probably impossible to get beyond
    > that point in "their" science.

    >      If he argued that the "public" was ignorant, and
    > non-motivated, I would agree with him completely.  But you are not
    > "the public", and you have the right to use your own judgment
    > about science, facts, and protect your own visual future under
    > your own control.

    >      To further respond:

    >      ______________________

    > Jon > Dear Otis

    > Jon > I read where Mike Tyner states that it is only possible for
    >       accomodation myopes to improve their vision with the plus.

    > Otis> Mike has no clue about who can work their way out of
    >       nearsighedness.  I would suspect a large number of pilots
    >       could do so — if they had the motivation for it — and
    >       engineering support.  This is a conveient ploy — just
    >       describe everyone who works himself clear — as having
    >       "preventable myopia".  Always easy to do — after the fact!

    > Jon > He says it isnt possible for other types of myopia to be
    >       reversed with the plus.

    > Otis> I would agree that once YOU BEGIN WEARING THE MINUS you will
    >       develop NOT-PREVENABLE myopia — caused by that minus lens.

    > Otis> You were both lucky and smart not to be caught in that trap!

    > Jon > I think he may be wrong,

    > Otis> You are correct.     Remember what I said about money, power
    >       and position.  He must twist everything to maitain all of
    >       these things for himself.  Truth, accurate scientific fact,
    >       and your long-term visual is not important to him — they
    >       are only to you, and other scientists like Stirling Colgate,
    >       Francis Young and Howard Howland.

    > Jon > …Because when I went to my OD in april he told my my
    >       problem was that my cornea was too steep.

    > Otis> This is an extrapolation from a bad theory.  There is no way
    >       anyone could make that determination from an eye were only
    >       the reafractive status is measured.

    > Jon > He never mentioned psuedo-myopia as being my problem.

    > Otis> There is a profound misconception at work here.  It is the
    >       "bad theory" belief that the eye is a "frozen" box camera,
    >       and that you can analyize the eye that way.  This is called
    >       a "paradigm".  The scientific concept is that the eye is
    >       "dynamic".  This is a much more accurate concept — and in
    >       the event you have proven this fact to youself by getting
    >       your refractive status to change by +1.5 dipoters and
    >       clearing to 20/20.  For you that is the real proof — that
    >       you can do this work successfully under your own control.

    > Otis> Don’t let these closed-minded ODs get you down.  Remember
    >       the "quality" of Dr.  Stirling Colgate and Dr.  Steve Leung.
    >       Successful prevention is indeed the "medical"
    >       second-opinion, even though very difficult.

    > Otis> Steve Leung OD is working FOR YOU, and using the plus on his
    >       own young children.  This is the true nature of an honest
    >       "second opinion"

    > Best,

    > Otis

  2. admin says:

    This posting is an automatic reply to any sci.med.vision newsgroup thread
    that is receiving comments from a certain person named "Otis Brown" or
    "Otis, Engineer".

    Otis is not an expert in any field of vision. His medical and eyecare
    training is nil.  He is a proponent of a myopia (i.e. nearsightedness)
    prevention technique that is unproven at best, and has in some aspects even
    been disproven by controlled scientific studies.  He has posted and reposted
    his ideas approximately 1000 times over the last two years despite being
    repeatedly debunked by numerous doctor practitioners and vision scientists.

    No one means to suppress the opinions of others.  This message is only meant
    to forewarn anyone who might misconstrue Otis as a trained eyecare expert.

    DO NOT REPLY TO HIS POSTINGS.  Do not feed the troll!

    Please see the weekly posting "welcome to sci.med.vision" which appears on
    Mondays for information on how to filter out his posts so that you may be
    able to participate in worthwhile discussions in this forum.  Thank you for
    your cooperation and
    understanding.

  3. admin says:

    "RM" <priv…@piracy.net> wrote in news:cojaup02t01@enews4.newsguy.com:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    > This posting is an automatic reply to any sci.med.vision newsgroup
    > thread that is receiving comments from a certain person named "Otis
    > Brown" or "Otis, Engineer".

    > Otis is not an expert in any field of vision. His medical and eyecare
    > training is nil.  He is a proponent of a myopia (i.e. nearsightedness)
    > prevention technique that is unproven at best, and has in some aspects
    > even been disproven by controlled scientific studies.  He has posted
    > and reposted his ideas approximately 1000 times over the last two
    > years despite being repeatedly debunked by numerous doctor
    > practitioners and vision scientists.

    > No one means to suppress the opinions of others.  This message is only
    > meant to forewarn anyone who might misconstrue Otis as a trained
    > eyecare expert.

    > DO NOT REPLY TO HIS POSTINGS.  Do not feed the troll!

    > Please see the weekly posting "welcome to sci.med.vision" which
    > appears on Mondays for information on how to filter out his posts so
    > that you may be able to participate in worthwhile discussions in this
    > forum.  Thank you for your cooperation and
    > understanding.

    Sorry.  I violated the rule.  NO RESPONSE.

    DrG

  4. admin says:

    "Otis Brown" <otisbr…@pa.net> wrote

    > Otis> You are correct. Remember what I said about money, power
    >      and position.  He must twist everything to maitain all of
    >      these things for himself.

    Incredible. Just incredible.

    -MT

  5. admin says:

    Don’t you love the wealth, power, and status that being an optometrist
    provides?

    ——–

    "Mike Tyner" <mty…@mindspring.com> wrote in message

    news:SKard.11161$Ua.1866@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net…

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    > "Otis Brown" <otisbr…@pa.net> wrote

    >> Otis> You are correct. Remember what I said about money, power
    >>      and position.  He must twist everything to maitain all of
    >>      these things for himself.

    > Incredible. Just incredible.

    > -MT

  6. admin says:

    In article <cokkqi0…@enews2.newsguy.com>, "RM" <priv…@piracy.net> wrote:
    > Don’t you love the wealth, power, and status that being an optometrist
    > provides?

    These things are all relative.  A lot of people are jealous of MDs, so I
    was surprised one day (many years ago) to find out that primary care MDs
    think that they are on the bottom of the heap and are (some) insanely
    jealous of specialists.

    If you don’t think that ODs are way above the median in terms of wealth,
    power and status, then you aren’t being very realistic.  How would you
    like to be a checker or stocker at Kmart?  Do you think those people have
    more wealth, power and status than you do?

    :-)


    Dan Abel
    Sonoma State University
    AIS
    da…@sonic.net

  7. admin says:

    Dan,
    yes, everything is relative.  I am happy to be an optometrist.  I can help
    people, I can make a decent living (but it may not be as lucrative as you
    think), it doesn’t involve backbreaking physical labor, I don’t get called
    in the middle of the night with emergencies (usually), and I don’t have to
    watch people get sick and die the way some physicians do.   I worked hard
    and spent alot of time and money to earn this career.  Anyone in this
    country who is so motivated can become an optometrist too.

    Regardless, the whole context of the remarks in this thread is around Otis’
    original posting in which he implies that optometrists purposely use minus
    lenses so as to promote patients to need even more spectacle correction in
    the future.  He seems to believe we do this so we can earn more money, cause
    patients to be dependent upon us, etc.  Otis believes we are all involved in
    some kind of conspiracy.

    "Dan Abel" <da…@sonic.net> wrote in message

    news:dabel-0112040926470001@ssu-64en129.sonoma.edu…

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    > In article <cokkqi0…@enews2.newsguy.com>, "RM" <priv…@piracy.net>
    > wrote:

    >> Don’t you love the wealth, power, and status that being an optometrist
    >> provides?

    > These things are all relative.  A lot of people are jealous of MDs, so I
    > was surprised one day (many years ago) to find out that primary care MDs
    > think that they are on the bottom of the heap and are (some) insanely
    > jealous of specialists.

    > If you don’t think that ODs are way above the median in terms of wealth,
    > power and status, then you aren’t being very realistic.  How would you
    > like to be a checker or stocker at Kmart?  Do you think those people have
    > more wealth, power and status than you do?

    > :-)

    > —
    > Dan Abel
    > Sonoma State University
    > AIS
    > da…@sonic.net

  8. admin says:

    "RM" <priv…@piracy.net> wrote in message <news:cokkqi0r62@enews2.newsguy.com>…
    > Don’t you love the wealth, power, and status that being an optometrist
    > provides?

    To be an optometrist is really a very rude profession.
    They are still like 400 years ago, still believing that imperfect
    sight cannot be treated, nor cured.

  9. admin says:

    "RM" <priv…@piracy.net> wrote in message <news:cojaup02t01@enews4.newsguy.com>…
    > DO NOT REPLY TO HIS POSTINGS.  Do not feed the troll!

    My god, this is the fear you have, that any troll-like person like
    Otis can spoil your whole business…

    But what are you believing to be?

    So important a person???

    Be serious!!!

  10. admin says:

    "RM" <priv…@piracy.net> wrote

    > Don’t you love the wealth, power, and status that being an optometrist
    > provides?

    The same thing we do every night, Pinky… try to take over the world…

    -MT

  11. admin says:

    g.ga…@agora.it (Rishi Giovanni Gatti) wrote in message <news:c72b1499.0412011026.1881f76b@posting.google.com>…

    > "RM" <priv…@piracy.net> wrote in message <news:cokkqi0r62@enews2.newsguy.com>…
    > > Don’t you love the wealth, power, and status that being an optometrist
    > > provides?

    > To be an optometrist is really a very rude profession.
    > They are still like 400 years ago, still believing that imperfect
    > sight cannot be treated, nor cured.

    Now get back to work and finish polishing my Ferarri, otherwise there
    be no tip for you!!

    frank

  12. admin says:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    otisbr…@pa.net (Otis Brown) wrote in message <news:6dbddb9.0411301826.b141327@posting.google.com>…
    > Dear Friends,

    > As you know, a poster with the initials RM does not
    > give use his name, but claims certain qualifications
    > which we can not check.

    > Equally, I have not identified my 14 year-old friends
    > Shawn-Jon for exactly the same reson.  You can believe
    > RM, or Shawn as you chooes.

    > It is true that the plus-for-prevention is difficult
    > to use, and depends more on the person’s fortitude,
    > than anything that can be "prescribed".  In that
    > sense the issue truly is the motivation concerned
    > with protecting his distant vision by use of the plus.

    > Subject:  Commentary by Jon on Mike’s theory of nearsightedness.

    > Jon > Please forward this to Mike Tyner as well.

    > Otis> I will — but he might choke.

    >      _______________
    > (Major snip, same old repetition)

    Aren’t you the least bit sheepish that you have to rely on
    a teenager to help your battle(s)?? Do you even have the
    parents permission to be using him as a "poster boy" for
    your cause??

    Did this teen get a pre/post cycloplegic (or at least a pre/
    post dry retinoscopy/subj refraction) exam to verify his
    statements/results?? Some individuals are very good at squinting
    and at letter recognition.

    frank

  13. admin says:

    Dear Rishi,

    It is intersting that they post againt the concept
    of prevention, and your right of choice — while
    they ignore you?

    What is that?

    Best,

    Otis

    g.ga…@agora.it (Rishi Giovanni Gatti) wrote in message <news:c72b1499.0412011028.5d202028@posting.google.com>…

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    > "RM" <priv…@piracy.net> wrote in message <news:cojaup02t01@enews4.newsguy.com>…

    > > DO NOT REPLY TO HIS POSTINGS.  Do not feed the troll!

    > My god, this is the fear you have, that any troll-like person like
    > Otis can spoil your whole business…

    > But what are you believing to be?

    > So important a person???

    > Be serious!!!

  14. admin says:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    drfran…@hotmail.com (drfrank21) wrote in message <news:e04e8a5a.0412011506.17341cee@posting.google.com>…
    > otisbr…@pa.net (Otis Brown) wrote in message <news:6dbddb9.0411301826.b141327@posting.google.com>…
    > > Dear Friends,

    > > As you know, a poster with the initials RM does not
    > > give use his name, but claims certain qualifications
    > > which we can not check.

    > > Equally, I have not identified my 14 year-old friends
    > > Shawn-Jon for exactly the same reson.  You can believe
    > > RM, or Shawn as you chooes.

    > > It is true that the plus-for-prevention is difficult
    > > to use, and depends more on the person’s fortitude,
    > > than anything that can be "prescribed".  In that
    > > sense the issue truly is the motivation concerned
    > > with protecting his distant vision by use of the plus.

    > > Subject:  Commentary by Jon on Mike’s theory of nearsightedness.

    > > Jon > Please forward this to Mike Tyner as well.

    > > Otis> I will — but he might choke.

    > >      _______________
    > > (Major snip, same old repetition)

    > Aren’t you the least bit sheepish that you have to rely on
    > a teenager to help your battle(s)?? Do you even have the
    > parents permission to be using him as a "poster boy" for
    > your cause??

    > Did this teen get a pre/post cycloplegic (or at least a pre/
    > post dry retinoscopy/subj refraction) exam to verify his
    > statements/results?? Some individuals are very good at squinting
    > and at letter recognition.

    > frank

    Dear Frank,

    First you claim that this intelligent young man
    is a "child".

    Then you say he does not "exist".

    Then you say he was not nearsighed.

    Then you say he did not clear his
    distant vision to 20/20, through
    some very hard personal work.

    I will forward this to him.  He
    has more interesting work to maintain
    his distant vision at 20/20,
    rather that you worry about you
    artifical "concern" for him.

    He is old enough to think for himself
    and follow the advice of a scientist
    who previously cleared his distant
    vision by this method.

    Best,

    Otis

  15. admin says:

    On 30 Nov 2004 18:26:52 -0800, Otis Brown wrote:

    > Equally, I have not identified my 14 year-old friends
    > Shawn-Jon for exactly the same reson.  You can believe
    > RM, or Shawn as you chooes.

    Why should we believe you????  Shawn if he is so intelligent should be able
    to speak for himself on this newsgroup.

    Or maybe he can’t since Shawn does not exist.

    Allen

  16. admin says:

    A Lieberman <liebe…@myself.com> wrote in message <news:1buv5ttnc7ggi$.137gep4cr0ov6$.dlg@40tude.net>…
    > On 30 Nov 2004 18:26:52 -0800, Otis Brown wrote:

    > > Equally, I have not identified my 14 year-old friends
    > > Shawn-Jon for exactly the same reson.  You can believe
    > > RM, or Shawn as you chooes.

    > Why should we believe you????  

    Otis>  Please, Allen, do not believe me.  I believe
    in experimental truth as it concerns the dynamic
    behavior of the "natural eye".  This is tested
    using basic "input" versus "output" methods.
    The testing yields a very accurate model for
    the natural eye’s performance under direct
    test.  Shawn has an order of intelligence
    and motivation about this issue that I have
    seen in VERY FEW PEOPLE.  

    Otis>  But let me ask another question.
    Why should Shawn believe you?

    Shawn if he is so intelligent should be able

    > to speak for himself on this newsgroup.

    Otis>  Shawn looks at the objective scientific
    data concerning the eye’s behavior. He is busy
    working to achieve "best visual acuity", which
    is far above 20/20.  You apparently believe
    that:

    1.  He should not do this
    2.  He can not do it.

    And after he does it, you will say it
    never happened.

    I think the wisdom about this issue is
    in Shawn — and certainly not in you.
    But, as before that is his choice.

    Maintain clear distant vision for the
    next 7 years, or start wearing an
    over-prescribed minus lens.  
    His choice indeed.

    > Or maybe he can’t since Shawn does not exist.

    Allen, you believe what you wish to believe.

    If you wish to believe that the natural
    eye is a box camera — then do it.

    Otis>  The only person who has "won" this
    battle is Shawn — and he is the only
    person who matters.

    Best,

    Otis

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    > Allen

  17. admin says:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    > > > (Major snip, same old repetition)

    > > Aren’t you the least bit sheepish that you have to rely on
    > > a teenager to help your battle(s)?? Do you even have the
    > > parents permission to be using him as a "poster boy" for
    > > your cause??

    > > Did this teen get a pre/post cycloplegic (or at least a pre/
    > > post dry retinoscopy/subj refraction) exam to verify his
    > > statements/results?? Some individuals are very good at squinting
    > > and at letter recognition.

    > > frank

    > Dear Frank,

    > First you claim that this intelligent young man
    > is a "child".

    > Then you say he does not "exist".

    > Then you say he was not nearsighed.

    > Then you say he did not clear his
    > distant vision to 20/20, through
    > some very hard personal work.

    > I will forward this to him.  He
    > has more interesting work to maintain
    > his distant vision at 20/20,
    > rather that you worry about you
    > artifical "concern" for him.

    > He is old enough to think for himself
    > and follow the advice of a scientist
    > who previously cleared his distant
    > vision by this method.

    > Best,

    > Otis

    Let’s just cut to the chase. I asked you 3 simple questions
    and you conveniently ignored them all. That tells me that
    either that you don’t have the answers or you don’t care
    to tell us. They are all legitimate questions.

    Not only do you not answer them but your credibility plunges
    even further to me when you out and out lie. Tell me exactly
    where I said HE didn’t exist or that he was NOT nearsighted??
    You can’t. As an engineer I would think that you would want
    to have some hard evidence (pre and post cycloplegic exams)
    to prove your postings. Apparently not. You are just interested
    in mis-statements and outright lying at this point.

    So are you going to retract your lies or at least answer my
    questions. I bet not- your modus operandi will now be "I will
    forward this to…." and other ad nauseum reiterations.

    frank

  18. admin says:

    otisbr…@pa.net (Otis Brown) wrote in message <news:6dbddb9.0412011854.35157357@posting.google.com>…
    > Dear Rishi,

    > It is intersting that they post againt the concept
    > of prevention, and your right of choice — while
    > they ignore you?

    > What is that?

    I really don’t know, these people are nuts, they are afraid to become
    like zombies…

    And they are medical men!!!

  19. admin says:

    drfran…@hotmail.com (drfrank21) wrote in message <news:e04e8a5a.0412011436.7b4cc72d@posting.google.com>…
    > g.ga…@agora.it (Rishi Giovanni Gatti) wrote in message <news:c72b1499.0412011026.1881f76b@posting.google.com>…
    > > "RM" <priv…@piracy.net> wrote in message <news:cokkqi0r62@enews2.newsguy.com>…
    > > > Don’t you love the wealth, power, and status that being an optometrist
    > > > provides?

    > > To be an optometrist is really a very rude profession.
    > > They are still like 400 years ago, still believing that imperfect
    > > sight cannot be treated, nor cured.

    > Now get back to work and finish polishing my Ferarri, otherwise there
    > be no tip for you!!

    ???

    All sorts of mad people come here to read my messages and then cannot
    abstain from comment.

  20. admin says:

    In article <6dbddb9.0412021049.106eb…@posting.google.com>,

    otisbr…@pa.net (Otis Brown) wrote:
    > If you wish to believe that the natural
    > eye is a box camera — then do it.

    Why do you keep bringing this up?  Can you name one single person on this
    group who thinks the eye is like a box camera?  I certainly don’t.  That
    doesn’t mean that I think that the eye changes its basic shape when you do
    eye exercises, either.


    Dan Abel
    Sonoma State University
    AIS
    da…@sonic.net

  21. admin says:

    "Dan Abel" <da…@sonic.net> wrote

    >> Otis> If you wish to believe that the natural
    >> eye is a box camera — then do it.
    > Why do you keep bringing this up?  Can you name one single person on this
    > group who thinks the eye is like a box camera?  I certainly don’t.  That
    > doesn’t mean that I think that the eye changes its basic shape when you do
    > eye exercises, either.

    That’s the essence of the "strawman" technique. Otis argues both sides, so
    then he can tattle to his "friends" through the filter of his own limited
    experience.

    He doesn’t know a single optometrist who does cycloplegic refractions,
    therefore none of us do.

    -MT

  22. admin says:

    Dear Rishi,

    Subject:  Challenging existing "authority".

    The history of medicine has been the habit of adopting
    methods that work "instantly", and following
    "traditional" methods and practice.

    This is EXACTLY the problem that Dr. Bates encountered
    when he attempted to point out that there might
    be a "problem" with the minus lens.  Obviously
    you know what happened to him.

    An even more egregious example was the case
    of Imanual Siemelwiess who noticed that the
    death-rate in young woman was profoundly worse
    when the doctors delivered the babys.  In fact
    it would run 30 percent.  

    Seiemlwiess (by washing hands and other techniques)
    reduced this rate to about 1 percent.  Was
    his method accepted?  Absolulty not.  His
    commision was not renewed, and he became
    a pariah of the medical profession.

    The "traditional" MDs ran studies that PROVED
    that washing your hands had NO EFFECT on
    the death rate.

    It took 30 years before some of the MDs "woke up"
    to what they were doing.

    So yes, that is the nature of the "warning"
    posted against the concept that the natural
    eye is a sophisticated and dynamic system.

    Best,

    Otis
    Engineer

    (Not a medical person — for obvious reasons.)

    g.ga…@agora.it (Rishi Giovanni Gatti) wrote in message <news:c72b1499.0412020953.3af6162a@posting.google.com>…

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    > otisbr…@pa.net (Otis Brown) wrote in message <news:6dbddb9.0412011854.35157357@posting.google.com>…
    > > Dear Rishi,

    > > It is intersting that they post againt the concept
    > > of prevention, and your right of choice — while
    > > they ignore you?

    > > What is that?

    > I really don’t know, these people are nuts, they are afraid to become
    > like zombies…

    > And they are medical men!!!

  23. admin says:

    Gotta love it!  

    Otis posting to Rishi and Rishi to Otis.

    Speaking of the "blind leading the blind" !!!

    That’s the answer to getting rid of the them! Let them simply do it to
    each other and the rest of us can proceed with intelligent and useful
    dialog as they babble on in their own little world.  Yeh!

  24. admin says:

    Dear Friends,

    There is always a dispute — of course!

    If the OD wished to make the comment that most
    people have no interest in prevention — I would
    agree with them.

    Dispite all the self-serving distortions about
    my statements concening objective factual
    data and the dynamic behavior of the
    fundamental eye — I bear no ill-will
    to the ODs on this site.

    In fact I think they face an "impossible"
    situation that is now totally out of control,
    witness the 92 percent of the MDs on
    Taiwan.  We (and they) are not making
    thinks better with the minus lens, and
    in fact are most likely making it worse.

    But equally, I do not "deal" with a
    great mass of people walking in off
    the street — expecting extremely
    sharp vision in 15 minutes.
    That is not engineering-science,
    but perhaps you can call it
    "medical-science".

    The difference is in the education
    and motivation of the person (or pilot)
    who is interested in true-prevention.

    In fact a percentage of ODs has CONSISTENTLY
    advocated the use of the plus over the
    last 100 years.  But to suggest something
    like that requires planning, review
    of the facts, and people who actually
    examine objective facts — before they
    start a preventive effort.

    I suggest thst this is possible
    in an "open" academic environment,
    where an educated pilot would
    be in "control" of the effort
    in a systematic manner.

    I believe this is possible and
    will support it.  

    But that is were we stand at
    the present time.

    http://www.myopiafree.com

    Best,

    Otis
    Engineer

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    LarryDoc <larry…@nospam.yahoodotcom> wrote in message <news:larrydoc-36B83C.10184503122004@news.verizon.net>…
    > Gotta love it!  

    > Otis posting to Rishi and Rishi to Otis.

    > Speaking of the "blind leading the blind" !!!

    > That’s the answer to getting rid of the them! Let them simply do it to
    > each other and the rest of us can proceed with intelligent and useful
    > dialog as they babble on in their own little world.  Yeh!

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